
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, October 26 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1261



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: How Many Imperial Barons?
Barons and Moots and Imperia, oh my!
Re: Mining the TML
Re: BD Crush Depth (was Freezing in the Aleutians)
Re: BD Crush Depth (was Freezing in the Aleutians)
Re: HOW tactical are a ship's lasers?
RE: HOW tactical are a ship's lasers?
Fellow Traveller
Oh no... an Imperial Warrant!
PBeM game - 3 Openings only!
Re: TML Members as resources
Re: Norris the Man
Re: Mining the TML
Re: Honoring J. Andrew Keith with a planet
Re: Barons and Moots and Imperia, oh my!
Re: Mining the TML
Re: Fellow Traveller
Re: Honoring J. Andrew Keith with a planet
RE: Honoring J. Andrew Keith with a planet
Re: Oh no... an Imperial Warrant!
Re: Norris the Man
Re: Norris the Man 
Re: Norris the Man 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:14:19 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: How Many Imperial Barons?

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>>>>>>
Hmmm. That didn't help much. You'd almost think it was made up by several
different people who didn't consider the implications much. ;-)
>>>>>>>
As are some forms of government.
The 3I is often a government of men, not laws. This may be because
the laws don't work all that well. ;-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:21:43 -0500
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Barons and Moots and Imperia, oh my!

I more or less agree with points from Jon Zeigler:

Z1. The baronage is the main pool from which the upper ranks
of Imperial bureaucracy are drawn.

Z2. There is probably at least one baron per self-governing planet.

Z3. Larger worlds probably have more barons.

I also agree with points from Hans Rancke-Madsen, mainly:

RM1. [re: the Moot] 10,000 peers are unwieldly

My own thoughts are here:

E1. There are barons, and there are barons.  Some barons are
regionally or locally recognized only.  This implies they may not
be in the Peerage...

E2. Nobility concentrates at the top.  High population worlds
will have more barons, simply because those worlds are more
important than others.  Tech Level might also play a minor role
in this, but I wouldn't bet that a TL F pop A world would have
more barons than a TL C pop A world.  A TL 4 world of course
might have fewer barons...

In the arbitrary and abstract case, consider population as an
indicator of how many barons a world has.  Using wild guesses,
we have:

pop 0-3: probably no barons (regional representation?)
pop 4-7: maybe (maybe not) 1 baron.
pop 8: probably 1 baron.
pop 9-A: probably around 10 barons.

TL 0-3: divide number of barons by 10
TL 4-8: divide number of barons by 2 (round up)
TL 9-B: no modifier
TL C-F: multiply number of barons by 2

(Individual worlds must be treated on a case-by-case basis,
however.  Exceptions occur.)

As for getting the Moot together, suffice it to say that most
won't bother going to every meeting, but rather a higher official
or even some proxies will attend, representing subsectors or
sectors or even domains if necessary.

That said, there may be an informal Grand Moot kind of thing
where once every decade every single voting Moot member
shows up at Capital for one humongous session of pomp,
ceremony, scandal, intrigue, backstabbing, legislation pushing,
parties, assassinations, and other political subtleties.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:32:08 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Mining the TML

Glenn St-Germain writes:
>If Instruction as a skill cannot be taught, then what do they
>teach in Teacher's College? :)

	Survival  :)

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:32:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: BD Crush Depth (was Freezing in the Aleutians)

Terry Carlino writes:
> I can't agree with that. The formulas below are from page 133 of GURPS
> vehicles. The depths don't get into the really ridiculous range (IMO) until
> you get to Marine Commando Battle Dress GT:SM style. Depth is in yards
> (meters). You'll have to convert to Atm. as I don't have depth tables
> handy. 
> 
> (DR+10)x0.25x10=CD (yards) Extra light frame
> (DR+10)x0.5x10=CD (yards) light frame
> (DR+10)x1.0x10=CD (yards) medium frame
> (DR+10)x2.0x10=CD (yards) heavy frame
> (DR+10)x4.0x10=CD (yards) extra heavy frame
> 
>                     DR
> Combat Armor          20     (20+10)x0.5x10=70 (yards) light frame    
Lessee..30 * 0.5 * 10 = 150 = 13.5 atm.
> 63 m Battle Dress          100     (100+10)x1.0x10=200 (yards) medium
110 * 1 * 10 = 1100 = 100 atm.
> frame          91 m Improved Battle Dress     120     (120+10)x1.0x10=220
130 * 1 * 10 = 1300 = 120 atm.
> (yards) medium frame          201 m Sane Battle Dress          500    
> (500+10)x1.0x10=600 (yards) medium frame          548 m Insane-Battle Dress 
If it's my 'sane' battledress it has an extra-heavy frame and crush depth (510)*4*10 = 20,400 yards = 2000+ atm.  However, I think it only had DR 250 in the lightest spots, so its actually about half that.  I'd be surprised if the SM battledress doesn't also have an extra-heavy frame.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:32:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: BD Crush Depth (was Freezing in the Aleutians)

Terry Carlino writes:
> I can't agree with that. The formulas below are from page 133 of GURPS
> vehicles. The depths don't get into the really ridiculous range (IMO) until
> you get to Marine Commando Battle Dress GT:SM style. Depth is in yards
> (meters). You'll have to convert to Atm. as I don't have depth tables
> handy. 
> 
> (DR+10)x0.25x10=CD (yards) Extra light frame
> (DR+10)x0.5x10=CD (yards) light frame
> (DR+10)x1.0x10=CD (yards) medium frame
> (DR+10)x2.0x10=CD (yards) heavy frame
> (DR+10)x4.0x10=CD (yards) extra heavy frame
> 
>                     DR
> Combat Armor          20     (20+10)x0.5x10=70 (yards) light frame    
Lessee..30 * 0.5 * 10 = 150 = 13.5 atm.
> 63 m Battle Dress          100     (100+10)x1.0x10=200 (yards) medium
110 * 1 * 10 = 1100 = 100 atm.
> frame          91 m Improved Battle Dress     120     (120+10)x1.0x10=220
130 * 1 * 10 = 1300 = 120 atm.
> (yards) medium frame          201 m Sane Battle Dress          500    
> (500+10)x1.0x10=600 (yards) medium frame          548 m Insane-Battle Dress 
If it's my 'sane' battledress it has an extra-heavy frame and crush depth (510)*4*10 = 20,400 yards = 2000+ atm.  However, I think it only had DR 250 in the lightest spots, so its actually about half that.  I'd be surprised if the SM battledress doesn't also have an extra-heavy frame.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:39:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: HOW tactical are a ship's lasers?

Robert Eaglestone writes:
> Gentle Travellers,
> 
> Here's a scenario I'd like y'all to ponder.
> 
> Far Trader _Marliiner_ has landed on the surface of a barren world.
> Investigating the surface, they find the landscape pockmarked with
> centuries-old ruins.  They also find an insectlike, crustacean-like
> critter that burrows in nests all in/around the ruins.  These critters are
> malevolent to the extreme, and the adventurers, at one point, wisely
> destroy an entire nest by blasting its location with the ship's lasers.
> 
> The ship fires its lasers from a short distance at the surface of the
> planet... say a 30- or 60-degree angle downwards.  What is the minimum
> safe distance for ship's laser fire?  Please note that these lasers are
> 2-2-0-0, which means they do 2 points of damage to a starship's armor at
> 30,000 kilometers.

Most lasers in Traveller seem to be in the few hundred megajoule range.  If we assume 200 MJ, its equivalent to 50 kg of TNT, which can possibly do minor damage to a free trader out to 50 meters or so.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:43:33 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: HOW tactical are a ship's lasers?

Robert Eaglestone writes:
<snipped>
>Here's a scenario I'd like y'all to ponder.

	I hope y'all includes us CT types  :)

<snipped>
What is the minimum safe distance for ship's laser fire?
<snipped>

	I treat ship's lasers as AFV lasers for effect on
	planet-bound targets.  As such, collateral damage is
	unlikely more than 5 m from the primary target.  
	Within that radius, I would consider attacking the ship
	with the equivelent of a GL firing HE.  This means that
	IMTU it may take a number of shots (1 per personal cmbt
	round) to destroy a nest of critters (and if they are
	dug in deep, maybe some will still survive).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:42:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Fellow Traveller

> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:52:16 +1000
> From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
> 
> > From: "Douglas E. Berry" 
> > >Notice that "Socialism/Communism" Governments are not listed as
> > >GovernmentTypes in the UWP? 
> > 
> > There are a couple of government types that would fill the
> > Socialist/Communist role:
> 
> I think Doug is being a little PC here, in assuming that
> Socialism/Communism equals Soviet/Chinese style Stalinism.  Remember, in
> the TU, there's room for _everything_, somewhere.

Doug just did a quite credible job of mapping the existing government
types onto socialist and communist *economies*.  That's the key insight,
here; while there are obviously strong couplings between them, government
and economy are separate, and there's no reason why one can't have (say) a
communist democracy, or a socialist monarchy.

> I've added some more to his list:
> 
> Gov't 0: No government.  Local communities and collectives run things. 
> Might have happened if the Paris Commune had survived, and been joined by
> other Communes.  (Commune is French for city, by the way.  Well, more or
> less.)  

Trouble is that anarchy, or highly fractured government, is the least
stable form of social organization.  Inevitably enclaves will fuse and
grow, just to get economies of scale and in order to counter the guys
across the river, who are also fusing and growing.

> The other thing to consider is that by TL F, at least, labour
> productivity is quite remarkable.  It might not make sense to produce
> things in a capitalist manner at this point, and might make more sense
> for stuff like basic food, housing and clothing to be distributed free. 

This leads off into Banksian "hypercommunism," in which there's a massive
superabundance of anything within reason, and in which people are also on
the whole better socially adjusted to *be* reasonable.  There's a lovely
minor subplot in one of his books in which a character gets utterly
enraptured by the primitive notion of private property, and decides he
wants to 'own' something.  The ship he's on obligingly fabricates a
grapefruit-sized diamond and declares it to be his alone; he carries it
around proudly for a few days before getting bored with it.  He starts
carelessly leaving it lying around, several people trip over it or stub
their toes on it, and finally (with the owner's consent) they eject the
thing.

- -- 
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |   "They do not preach that their God will rouse them
      a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:53:02 -0500
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Oh no... an Imperial Warrant!

Hans worried about Imperial Warrants being name-less, i.e.
anyone bearing it wears its authority as well as its responsibility.

>The part I take issue with is the 'bearer' bit. There's no good
>reason for it, and the potential for disaster in case it fell into
>unauthorized hands is too great.

Probably not so.  I can see non-nobles recoiling in horror
at the sight of one lying on the sidewalk:

Dramatis Personae

PC 1: "Mr. Nervous"
PC 2: "Mr. Gung-Ho"

Ref:   "You are walking down the street in Startown.  PC1 notices
a certain scrap of paper in the gutter."

PC 1: "I look at it closely.  Is it local cash, or a ship's title deed?"

Ref: "You recognize it from a picture on trideo. It is an Imperial
Warrant."

PC 1:"Holy crap, man, an Imperial Warrant!  Let's get out of here
before they raze the entire block!"

PC 2: "No.  I retrieve the warrant first...  The Emperor Himself might
give us battledresses as reward..."

PC 1: "WHAT have you been smoking?  They'd chop us to gibbets
before we got anywhere NEAR the Emperor!"

PC 2: "No way, look here: 'You are ordered to help the bearer in
any way you can because he is working for the best interests of the
Imperium'.  It's a gold mine, man!"

PC 1: "I dunno..."

Ref: "You notice that people who were on the road with you have
scurried off in all directions after seeing the paper.  Some are running
indoors, while others are just hurrying down the street."

PC 2: "Ho hum.  Ok, we go to the nearest arms dealer to buy some
battledress and PCMP-13s.  No, better make that FGMP-15!  Yeah!"

PC 1: "I'm outta here!"

PC 2: "Don't be a wimp; the ref wouldn't have given this to us unless
he wanted us to USE it, right?"

PC 1: "Well.."

Ref: "Well.."

PC 2: "And the only proper way that WE could POSSIBLY use it
is to get cool stuff and go out and blow up Zhodani, right?"

PC 1: "Well..."

Ref: (Desperately trying to contain the players' imagination) "You
see several Imperial Marines in full uniform walking down the center
of the road, weapons ready.  They seem to be covering the block
as if looking for someone (dramatic pause) or someTHING."

PC 2: "Okay, we get out of here and get back to the ship."

Ref: "They have spotted you, and one says 'You two there!  Halt!'"

PC 2: "We're too far away, we can't hear them."

PC 1: "Yeah!"

Ref: "The marine hailing you is using his suit's bullhorn."

PC 1: "Uh oh"

PC 2: "Well, we duck into a side street and lose 'em."

Ref: "They are too close for you to lose them."

PC 2: "WHAT??  Look, I'm not my PC, am I?  I have skills
here (waves character sheet) that shows I am a SURVIVOR.
And that means I can get away whenever I want to.  Of course
*I* don't know how to escape, but my *character* does.  That's
role playing!  Now are we back at our ship yet?"


I seem to have digressed a bit, as this scenario has taken on a
life of its own.  Suffice it to say that, just like battledress, Imperial
Warrants should be used by the referee with the utmost caution.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:10:33 -0400
From: "Scott Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Subject: PBeM game - 3 Openings only!

Hi,
    I am running a PBeM Gurps Traveller game that currently has three
openings.  The game is being run off of a list server and all players get
all messages.  This is a small group game, hence the three open slots.  The
game is somewhat more creative writing than actual dice rolling and such.
The character just helps to define your creative limits more or less.  If
you think you have the creative mind that it takes, and if you are
interested in joining and do not mind being slung into a personality that
has already been defined or has some room for further definition, please
contact me privately at:

Scott Spieker
scspieker@ncweb.com

Thank,
Scott Spieker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:52:49 +0100
From: "Peter  Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: TML Members as resources

Ok I give in, I've got to give this a go

Peter Scarrott
Wheeled Vehicle (Motorcycle) - 3, History - 3, Small Watercraft (Sail) - 2,
Leadership - 2, Instruction - 2, Admin - 1,  Computer - 1, Large
Watercraft - 1, Navigation - 1, Research - 1, Survival -0, Medic (Trauma
Aid) -  0, Rifle - 0.

Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk

IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+
vi-
      And life is harsh and rarely fair.

A committee is a life form with six or more legs and no brain.
  Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 19:52:32 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: Norris the Man

Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:27:58 +0200 (METDST) Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

> Just to keep this straight, we are talking about some Aslan clan lord in,
> say, Dark Nebula sector, who sends off an _ihatei_ fleet that is a threat
> to the Domain of Deneb, right? That means that he is sending them off on
> a journey where the ships he wants back is away for 3 to 4 years if they
> are jump-3. Effectively they are able to defend him for, let's be
> generous, 3-4 months out of every 3 years, or 10% of the time. If that
> doesn't put him at a disadvantage against a neighbor who keeps his ships
> at home, I don't know what does. 

What if all the other lords did the same? They all have the problem with the ihatei, so they all need to get rid of them... That would create an equilibrium - maybe not a very stable one, though :-)

> >Giving ihatei 2nd line ships to work with is actually a *good* thing for
> the 
> >Hierate in that it promotes new shipbuilding.
> 
> That is a fallacy that crops up with distressing regularity. While military
> spending is good for the lucky part of the society that gets to build and
> man the hardware, someone else (a lot of them) has to go without something
> else (a lot of it). SOMEBODY ALWAYS PAYS. If a clan lord gives away his
> military ships when they are 30 years old, he has to replace them more
> often than his Imperial oppo. That means he can't afford as many. The
> fact that his shipbuilding section will be burning incense in his praise
> doesn't alter that.

Hmm... Well, the "SOMEBODY ALWAYS PAYS" part is actually a subject of much debate in today's politics, and has been at least since (in the thirties or forties, IIRC) John Maynard Keynes first put forth his theory about the benefits of government spending. According to this theory, an expansive financial policy not only means that the government employees earn money, but they pay taxes and buy other goods, which helps put more people into work, who pay taxes and buy other goods, etc.

In fact, in a modern western economy, money typically circulates through the same person or organization two to three times a year, somewhat supporting the above theory.

It is still true that an Aslan lord who needs to replace his ships at 30 years intervals will be at a disadvantage against Imperials, but first, the Aslan are not at war with the third Imperium, and two, most Aslan lords are placed _very_ far from the Imperium.

BTW, although I have a masters degree (and a little more) in economics, I'm am personally not convinced that Keynes' theory is true - on the other hand, neither am I convinced that it is false :-) So this posting should not be considered as having anything to do with any *current* political debate...

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
marks@rainier.com (work)
20985193@note.sonofon.dk (SMS)
http://seemann.homepage.dk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:11:35 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Mining the TML

Sword Worlder wrote:

> From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
> > If Instruction as a skill cannot be taught, then what do they teach in
> > Teacher's College? :)
> 
> Oh, that's an easy one; psychology, sociology, eastern religions, public
> speaking, and how to respond to every question with another question.

...and why do you say that? ;-p

Eris,
   MEd

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:10:09 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Honoring J. Andrew Keith with a planet

In a message dated 10/26/99 4:08:31 PM !!!First Boot!!!, 
glenn.myers@ansys.com writes:

<< Thanks Doug,
 As a former resident of Mars, PA, I appreciate your comment!
  >>

I used to live in Lodi, NJ...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:12:58 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Barons and Moots and Imperia, oh my!

In a message dated 10/26/99 4:19:32 PM !!!First Boot!!!, 
eaglesto@nortelnetworks.com writes:

<< That said, there may be an informal Grand Moot kind of thing
 where once every decade every single voting Moot member
 shows up at Capital for one humongous session of pomp,
 ceremony, scandal, intrigue, backstabbing, legislation pushing,
 parties, assassinations, and other political subtleties.
  >>

WOW; what an adventure nugget! For example you could have a party of four (a 
journalist, a scout, a roboticist, and his robot) travel to Capital 
for....oh, nevermind...:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:14:18 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mining the TML

I just got a job offer today! Yeh; I'll be able to buy T5...:-) Does this 
mean my persuasion-0 has just gone up to 1?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:26:29 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fellow Traveller

In a message dated 10/26/99 4:43:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!, cberry@cinenet.net 
writes:

<< This leads off into Banksian "hypercommunism," in which there's a massive
 superabundance of anything within reason, and in which people are also on
 the whole better socially adjusted to *be* reasonable.  There's a lovely
 minor subplot in one of his books in which a character gets utterly
 enraptured by the primitive notion of private property, and decides he
 wants to 'own' something.  The ship he's on obligingly fabricates a
 grapefruit-sized diamond and declares it to be his alone; he carries it
 around proudly for a few days before getting bored with it.  He starts
 carelessly leaving it lying around, several people trip over it or stub
 their toes on it, and finally (with the owner's consent) they eject the
 thing. >>

I don't agree with this from a psychological point of view. I think people 
need a sense of ownership of some items. I also think this stems for personal 
space and privacy issues (which means it's variable depending on cultural 
norms). As an example, look at Israeli Kibbutz's or hunter-gatherer 
societies. MOST items are held in communal ownership, but certain items such 
as toiletries, clothing, and weapons (sometimes), are considered personal and 
thus "privately owned". I ask anyone on this list if they would be willing to 
share their LBB's....As a personal example, in my household the vast majority 
of items are considered communal, but my "stuff" (mostly my hobby items) are 
clearly "mine", and my wife's "stuff" is clearly hers. This doesn't mean we 
can't touch them, but you get the idea... I think even if I lived in a utopia 
where I could get anything I wanted at a whim, I would still have a need for 
my "space", especially if it involves something I CREATED myself...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:56:13 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Honoring J. Andrew Keith with a planet

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:45:56 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>

>At 06:08 25/10/1999 PDT, Will richards wrote:
>>How about this...
>>There are several systems in the Spiward marches that only have a number
>>designation.
>>  Why don't we pettition Marc and Loren to have one of them admitted to the
>>Imperium and given the name Andy?

>IMHO neither "Andy" nor "Keith" seem much of a name for a place (too short)
>but how about the planet

If I look at how the locals would likely name the world after a
"Andy Keith" I tend to think of "Keith's World"
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:20:36
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Honoring J. Andrew Keith with a planet

At 12:05 PM 10/26/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Thanks Doug,
>As a former resident of Mars, PA, I appreciate your comment!

Considering NASA's recent track record with Mars probes, expect word form
your former neighbors that the town was hit by an errant Observer..

<Press conference>

..NASA never specified *which* Mars they wanted the probe to go to, our
programmers are not at fault here..

</Press conference>
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

It's tough to beat a Chinese chef armed with
3 suckling pigs.     -Hud Nordin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:24:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Oh no... an Imperial Warrant!

At 11:53 AM 10/26/1999 -0500, you wrote:

>Dramatis Personae
>
>PC 1: "Mr. Nervous"
>PC 2: "Mr. Gung-Ho"

Or just substitute the cast from "Knights of the Dinner Table"

Kirsten and I kept expecting PC 2 to shout "I waste him with my crossbow!!"

Hoody Hoo!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com
Yfirmaur, Konunglegur Gramm Floti
Srstakur Vitsmunir jnusta
Sameina Her: Rm, Sver Verld Sambandsmyndun
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:19:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Cynthia Higginbotham <cyhiggin@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Norris the Man

> Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:27:58 +0200 (METDST) Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> 
> Hmm... Well, the "SOMEBODY ALWAYS PAYS" part is actually a subject of much debate in today's politics, and has been at least since (in the thirties or forties, IIRC) John Maynard Keynes first put forth his theory about the benefits of government spending. According to this theory, an expansive financial policy not only means that the government employees earn money, but they pay taxes and buy other goods, which helps put more people into work, who pay taxes and buy other goods, etc.
> 

Hasn't Keynes been discredited yet??  Sheeshi! His theories did enough damage
to the U.S. economy before the Fed came to its collective senses.

TANSTAAFL.  Government employees pumping money into the economy is
simply a matter of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

> BTW, although I have a masters degree (and a little more) in economics, I'm am personally not convinced that Keynes' theory is true - on the other hand, neither am I convinced that it is false :-) So this posting should not be considered as having anything to do with any *current* political debate...
> 
Any comment on C. Northcote Parks observations about the deleterious
effects of overtaxation?


			--Cynthia,
			who is not trying to start a flamewar. Honest.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:27:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Norris the Man 

> Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:27:58 +0200 (METDST) Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
> 
> > Just to keep this straight, we are talking about some Aslan clan lord in,
> > say, Dark Nebula sector, who sends off an _ihatei_ fleet that is a threat
> > to the Domain of Deneb, right? That means that he is sending them off on
> > a journey where the ships he wants back is away for 3 to 4 years if they
> > are jump-3. Effectively they are able to defend him for, let's be
> > generous, 3-4 months out of every 3 years, or 10% of the time. If that
> > doesn't put him at a disadvantage against a neighbor who keeps his ships
> > at home, I don't know what does. 
> 
> What if all the other lords did the same? They all have the problem with the ihatei, so they all need to get rid of them... That would create an equilibrium - maybe not a very stable one, though :-)

Well, they *can't* send them into either Dark Nebula or Reavers' Deep without 
serious repercussions.  The Peace of Ftahalr would prohibit it, and *noe* 
thing that Aslans are famous for is keeping their word.  It is interesting to 
note that the area behind the Claw is *NOT* covered in the Peace.  <grin>
 
> > >Giving ihatei 2nd line ships to work with is actually a *good* thing for
> > the 
> > >Hierate in that it promotes new shipbuilding.
> > 
> > That is a fallacy that crops up with distressing regularity. While military
> > spending is good for the lucky part of the society that gets to build and
> > man the hardware, someone else (a lot of them) has to go without something
> > else (a lot of it). SOMEBODY ALWAYS PAYS. If a clan lord gives away his
> > military ships when they are 30 years old, he has to replace them more
> > often than his Imperial oppo. That means he can't afford as many. The
> > fact that his shipbuilding section will be burning incense in his praise
> > doesn't alter that.

<snippage>

> It is still true that an Aslan lord who needs to replace his ships at 30 years intervals will be at a disadvantage against Imperials, but first, the Aslan are not at war with the third Imperium, and two, most Aslan lords are placed _very_ far from the Imperium.

First off, I'd see a lot of those 30 year old ships (and a lot of them would 
be a *lot* older than 30 years old, btw) as being gunned merchants, not 
necessarily warships from the keel on up.  Thus, their 'out of pocket cash' 
flow would be reduced somewhat.  Second, the Aslans are about 30 parsecs from 
the Imperium and the Solomani Confederation at their nearest points: in 
Reavers' Deep and Dark Nebula.  It was a created buffer zone between the 
Aslans and the Sollies/Imperium, created by the Peace, and *strenuously* 
adhered to by the Aslans.
 
Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:35:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: Norris the Man 

> Any comment on C. Northcote Parks observations about the deleterious
> effects of overtaxation?

I don't think the current US government subscribes to that religion.  
<ducking>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1261
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